Mobility and Access Committee for Scotland (MACS) - Main Committee Meeting - Minutes - 25 January 2022

Present

• Linda Bamford (LB) – Convener/Chair
• Michael Tornow (MT)
• Naghat Ahmed (NA)
• Joanne Devitt (JD)
• Susan Fulton (SF)
• Simon Watkins (SW)
• Graham Dunn (GD)
• Hilary Stubbs (HS)
• David Hunter (DH)
• Lynsey Shovlin (LS)
• Audrey Birt (AB)
• Heather Still (HS)

Secretariat

• Alexis Ferguson (AF) – Secretariat
• Karen Armstrong (KA)

Apologies

• Pauline Kelly

Ewan Matheson was not in attendance and apologies were not received.

Guests

• Mr Ben MacPherson MSP: Minister for Social Security and Local Government
• David George, Social Security Scotland 

Agenda Item 1: Welcome, Apologies and Housekeeping

1.1 The Convener welcomed everyone to the meeting, the first after the festive period. She covered general house- keeping points and reminded members that this was a legislative meeting and therefore it would be minuted with action points allocated to the appropriate individuals. She also stated that a draft version of the minutes would be shared with the Committee members for checking and comments within 10 days.

1.2 The Convener continued with a roll call of those in attendance for verbal orientation. Apologies were noted. 

The Convener provided an overview of the agenda, timings and structure of the meeting.

Agenda Item 2: Approval of minutes, matters arising and update on action points from previous meeting

2.1 The Convener asked if the Committee were happy to approve the previous legislative meeting minutes (19 October 2021) that were circulated with the meeting papers. The Committee agreed they were content and the minutes were approved.

2.2 The Convener then addressed the actions points from 19 October legislative Board meeting, with action points still open discussed and updated accordingly. There were sixteen action points. Ten were now completed and closed. She confirmed by number, which were closed and asked if everyone was in agreement. The Committee agreed. 

The Convener confirmed that actions points 3, 5, 10, 12 and 13 were still in progress and talked to each one in turn.

2.3 It was noted that Action point 3 in relation to consultations was not completed and had been outstanding for some time.  The Convener updated that The Deputy Sponsor was still to sign off the template that will be used to store the information. This should be done by 28 Jan 2022 and the Secretariat would share the consultation database with the Committee shortly afterwards and monthly thereafter.

Action Points 10 is now noted as closed, having been progressed since 10 Jan 2022.

Action Point 1

Secretariat to follow up Action Point 3 (consultation database) and the updated document to be sent to full committee for information by the 5 of each month.

In relation to Action Point 5 the Secretariat agreed to follow this up.

Action Point 2

Secretariat to follow up on previous Action Point 5 - BL to discuss with ferries colleagues the potential contradiction between a “turn up and go” route and the need for blue badge holders to call in advance of travelling.  Also to seek clarification about on-line bookings for blue badge travellers.

Action Points 10 was now noted as closed, having been progressed since 10 Jan 2022.

Action Point 11 was still on-going and the Secretariat confirmed that MACS request for the consultation on “Implementing Part 3 of the Transport (Scotland) Act 2019: Bus Services consultation”, was in a queue to with the TS Communication Team to be posted on the MACS website.

The Committee noted that this had now been over 4 months and asked if there were any delays. The Secretariat noted that it was due to the queuing system with the internal communication team.

Action Points 12 and 13 – it was agreed MT would circulate these documents as soon as they were available.

MT suggested that it would be beneficial for Public Health Scotland to present an update to MACS on the “Rapid Inequalities Impact Assessment of the Sustrans’ 2014 guidance for Local Authorities for Active Travel Strategies and Action Plans”. The Committee welcomed this and a date has now been set for 30 Aug 2020 (previous dates suggested not being suitable).

The Deputy Sponsor joined the meeting at this point.

2.4  A question was raised in relation to whether MACS should acknowledge the work of Mr Dey who has stepped down from his role as Transport Minister.  Committee members were updated that a tweet to that effect had been posted and that the Deputy Sponsor would draft a letter of introduction to Ms Gilruth, the new Minister for Transport.  

Action Point 3

Secretariat to draft a letter of introduction to the new Minister for Transport, Ms. Gilruth.

Agenda Item 3: Final preparation for meeting with Minister

3.1 The Convener covered her approach for the discussion with the Minister, including touching on the recent engagement with Motability and how this could influence the Scottish Government Accessible Vehicle and Equipment Scheme (AVES).

3.2  The Convener asked if there was anything that members wished to raise prior to the Minister joining. 

HS commented that by her calculations, from the information provided in the Motability Annual Report (published December 2021) that customers were being charged approximately £1000 more per year per Motability customer, than required to deliver the scheme, which equated to around a third of their annual PIP payments. 

The Convener made the comparison that this was approximately £20 per week and linked this to the game changing, recently doubled, Scottish Child Payments that had and will assist so many family groups living in poverty or on low incomes.

HS directed members to the Motability Annual Report for further information.

Agenda Item 4: Meeting with Minister for Social Security, Ben Macpherson, MSP

4.1 The Convener introduced the Minister, thanked him for his attendance and introduced Committee members and officials on the call.

The Convener gave a brief overview of some of the areas of MACS work that she felt linked to the Minister’s portfolio responsibilities. This included that in MACS’ role to advise Scottish Ministers on the transport and travel needs of disabled people they have:

• Been doing work around providing guidance and advice to Local Authorities on accessible and inclusive infrastructures to support the 20 minute neighbourhood concept and the connected communities agenda
• Been working with the Health and Social Care Alliance and Disability Equality Scotland to engage with disabled people to hear and understand their needs in relation to 20 minute neighbourhoods, which forms the base of our advice, and
• Been advocating for concessionary travel to be widened as part of the Fair Fares Review to make using public and community transport affordable - pushing this approach to assist with reducing transport poverty.

The Convener also confirmed that the Committee were in the process of refreshing their work plans for 2022/2023 to support Programme for Government commitments and are scheduled to have further conversations with the Minister’s colleague, Ms McKelvie, Minister for Equalities and Older People on 1 March 2022. The aim being to discuss:

• The role transport plays in reducing social isolation and loneliness, and
• Continue discussions around the need for meaningful Equality Impact Assessments (EqIAs) - to ensure that public bodies and local authorities respect this legislation when designing local neighbourhoods and delivering affordable and accessible public transport services. 

The Convener then confirmed that for this session MACS would like to discuss how the devolution of disability payments and hence transfer of Motability to the SG Accessible Vehicle and Equipment Scheme could offer opportunities to look at not only their concerns over value for money and accountability of the current Motability scheme, but opportunities to assist 1 or more of the 6 priority groups from the child poverty delivery plan (by maximising disabled people’s income i.e. they are paying more into the scheme from their limited incomes than needed) and also assist with tackling the climate emergency by making greener cars more affordable and mobility equipment available and affordable for disabled people to assist with reducing car kilometres by 20% by 2030.

The Minister thanked the Convener for the overview and welcomed and encouraged MACS to continue working across portfolio.

4.2 The Convener stated that the Committee had a series of questions they wished to discuss in relation to the Scottish Government AVE Scheme and a closed session commenced between MACS, the Minister and his officials.

Agenda Item 5: Hot Debrief

5.1 On conclusion of the meeting the Convener asked Committee Members if there were any particular learning points from the meeting with the Minister:

• SF suggested, and it was agreed by the Committee, that it was apparent that the Minister had read the biographies of each member, therefore the introduction section could be dropped in future, in order to facilitate an additional question.  This was agreed.

5.2 Other points discussed were in relation to:

• Updating the MACS briefing on Motability on the website.  DH asked if KA could update this, working collaboratively with him to agree a final version.
• LB will forward the MACS July super-report to KA for ease where there is additional information in relation to the customer experience.
• MACS agreed to tweet in relation to the meeting with the Minister and that the message should focus on high level points, thanking the Minister for an encouraging meeting.
• NA agreed to co-ordinate a response to the Minister in relation to examples of difficulties with the grant award and means testing issues.

Action Point 4

KA to update the Motability briefing on the MACS webpage in collaboration with DH.

Action Point 5

MACS to tweet in relation to their encouraging meeting with the Minister stating that they looked forward to the continued engagement.

Action Point 6

NA agreed to provide a response to the Minister in relation to examples of grant award and means testing issues.

Agenda Item 6: Update from Convener (paper for noting unless any urgent questions)

6.1 The Convener drew attention to two particular points within her super-report for the Committee’s consideration:

• Firstly, agreement that the theme for the next Development Day on 12 April 2022 would focus on taxi and private hire vehicles which AB and DH are working collaboratively with TS Accessibility team on.
• Secondly, a call was put out in relation to the next “Knowing me, Knowing You” sessions, which will cover inclusive communications, written and verbal, and language and message framing. 

6.2 Both sessions will involve external facilitators and will take place on 28 June and 13 September respectively.  These are the dates already scheduled for Full Committee Optional and as such should already be in member’s diaries. The intention is to extend the meetings to include these sessions to save adding additional dates and times.  The Committee agreed.

6.3 Feedback from the Committee was that these were good themes, however most would like to see the timings shifted from an 11:00 – 14:00 hours timeframe to a 10:00 – 12:30 hours timeframe with a 15 minute break included. Members felt this was a better option than working over lunch. Secretariat will adjust the timings accordingly.

Action Point 7

Secretariat to issue new timings for Knowing me, Knowing you sessions in June and September, update the internal meeting schedule and reissue to the full Committee.

6.4 HS asked if a detailed minute of these sessions could be captured to ensure that members have a tool that they can use going forward and update as and when required. The Convener stated that these sessions were not historically minuted but she would ensure that a copy of all slides, relevant background notes and hints and tips from the facilitators would be shared. She also stated that there should already be a hints and tips guide (for inclusive communications and presentations) that is shared with potential facilitators attending MACS meetings. This is available on the MACS website. She will ask the Secretariat to re-send this to all members for their ease and awareness.

Action Point 8

Secretariat to re-sent hints and tips guide on inclusive communications to all MACS members

6.5 LS agreed with the topic choices but wondered if any future learning sessions could include Equality Impact Assessments (EqIAs). The Convener stated that this will be part of the focus when the Committee next meet the Minister for Equalities and Older People (1 March 2022).  She also stated that MACS had previously had sight of a best practice video that Equalities officials had shared.  She asked that the Secretariat re-circulate this to all members as it was a very useful tool.

Action Point 9

Secretariat to re-circulate best practice EqIA video to all members

Agenda Item 7: Sponsor Team (paper for noting unless any urgent questions)

7.1 The Convener stated that this paper was for noting unless there were any urgent questions the Committee wished to ask the Deputy Sponsor.

7.2 The Convener prompted regarding the use of inclusive communications and asked that page numbering should be introduced and underlining in headings removed.

Action Point 10

Secretariat to ensure Sponsor Team update paper includes page numbering and under-lining of headings is removed

7.3 DH stated that in terms of the format of the paper itself, he would like to see the paper set out showing which areas of Transport Scotland and Scottish Government were inputting to, so MACS could clearly see where there were any relevant gaps in policy. He also asked that an organigram of TS could be shared with the Committee. KA stated that she would look to implement the points above and share an organigram, if there was one available.

Action Point 11

Secretariat to include the areas of TS and SG where updates are coming from to enable MACS to see where any gaps exist. KA to explore if an organigram of TS is available to be shared.

7.4 DH also raised under item 14 of the Sponsor Paper that the remit and membership of the Delivery Board appears to have changed. He noted that MACS had been advised that there was a possible revision to the membership of the Delivery Board in November 2021 and that MACS may no longer be members as the Board would be those responsible for the delivery of the recommendations. He had just received correspondence from officials confirming this and asked that KA follow up with them re the revised Terms of Reference (ToR) for the Delivery Board and the membership of both the Delivery Board and the Transport Equalities Network. KA agreed to action this.

Action Point 12

KA to follow up on correspondence from Nov 2021 re membership of Delivery Board.

Action Point 13

KA to provide DH with ToR for the NTS2 Delivery Board.

Action Point 14

KA to provide DH with membership of the NTS2 Delivery Board and Transport Equalities Network.

7.5 KA updated the Committee on recent staff changes within Transport Scotland at Chief Executive, Director and Ministerial level in relation to the transport brief.  She also stated that during conversations with the Convener she had agreed to implement a short monthly newsletter.

Agenda Item 8: Agreement of 2022-2023 revised Work Plans

Remit: To discuss and agree the work plans, revised following the November Scoping Day.

The Convener took the Committee through version 00.02 of the Work Plan for 2022-2023. This had been revised and amended following the Scoping Day in Nov 2021.

The areas of revision had been highlighted on each page and for inclusivity the Convener talked to each page and the agreed revisions, gaining final agreement for each before moving on.

After this process and further discussions (to add the SG Disability Delivery Plan and amend wording around the NTS2 Delivery Board) it was agreed that the Convener would finalise this document and send it to the Secretariat (as version 01.00) to forward to the Minister for approval. Following this the Secretariat would then share the approved Work Plan with the MACS Team, TS Policy Teams and MACS wider stakeholder network (including other Ministers).

At the time of writing the minute version 01.00 of the Work Plan for 2022-2023 has been finalised and sent to the Secretariat to process the above.

Agenda Item 9: Discussion on review of work-stream structures

The Convener talked through the revised Workstream Structures that had been agreed by full Committee on 14 Dec 2021. This included the Planning and Strategy Workstream consisting of a flow one and flow two with agreed areas of engagement under each. The remaining work-streams remained the same i.e. Bus and Community Transport, Ferries and Aviation, Rail and Roads, Infrastructure and Active Travel.

The Committee agreed this structure.

Remit: To agree the proposed restructure to Committee work-streams.

In terms of areas of engagement, the most notable changes since Nov 2021, had been to the Rail Workstream. The areas of engagement now being: Engagement with ScotRail on Operator of Last Resort, the Williams Schapps Review (establishment of the Great British Railways), Major rail station design & improvements, Passenger Assistance (including monitoring the return of disabled people to rail travel), and Engagement with ScotRail Equalities Group (SEG).

The above was noted and agreed.

Agenda Item 10: Key Messages for Twitter

It was agreed that MACS would tweet in relation to the meeting with the Minister for Social Security and Local Government and high level messages on Motability and SG AVES.

Agenda Item 11: Close

The Convener thanked members for their contributions and acknowledged that today’s meeting had been long and covered many areas of the Committee’s governance checks and balances and brought to a conclusion the annual planning cycles (Nov – end Jan). She thanked members for their open and frank input to these discussions, which had resulted in the finalised Work Plans and a work-stream structure and areas of agreed engagement that would allow the committee to work most effectively with its finite resources.